Monthly Archives: December 2009

Observations on Kevin Giles’ Response to Bird & Shillaker (1)

I read Kevin Giles’ article “Response to Michael Bird and Robert Shillaker: The Son is Not Eternally Subordinated to in Authority to the Father,” TrinJ 30/2 (2009): 237-56 (thanks to Justin Dodson for passing along a copy) earlier today and it’s the same old same that I’ve read in his books.  He plays the victim and accuses his opponents of misunderstanding or misrepresenting him (or the sources he uses to bolster his claims) repeatedly throughout the article (as he also did in his book Jesus and the Father: Modern Evangelicals Reinvent the Doctrine of the Trinity).  For example:

  • “What did not please me was in seeking to refute my case that historic orthodoxy rejects with one voice the eternal subordination in authority of the Son, they either get what I say wrong, distort what I say, do not note that I address the questions they put to me, or fail to make clear that several important points they make are ones that reflect almost word for word my conclusions.” (p. 237)
  • “In outlining my position on function and role they completely misrepresent what I actually argue.” (p. 239)
  • “Bird and Shillaker totally misrepresent me when they say I hold that ‘functional subordination requires onological inferiority’… ‘one’s function determines one’s person’… ad infinitum, and important in the concluding summary.” (p. 240)
  • “Many a time I wondered if in fact they had read my book completely; they have certainly not read it carefully. It is almost as if they are attaching a straw man.” (p. 242)
  • “This assertion makes me wonder yet again if my two critics have read my book, let alone any substantial book on the historical development of the doctrine of the Trinity.” (p. 243)
  • “It is my opinion that Bird and Shillaker misrepresent the teaching of both of these great modern theologians [i.e., Karl Barth & Wolfhart Pannenberg].” (p. 244)
  • “First I note that my two critics do not get Rahner’s rule right.” (p. 244)
  • “My two critics make no reference to my work and seem ignorant of the complexities of Rahner’s rule.” (p. 245)

I also found that the article should have been called “Response to Michael Bird, Robert Shillaker, Bruce Ware, Wayne Gruden, George Knight, III and Millard Erickson.”  Not contented to simply address Bird and Shillaker’s article “Subordination in the Trinity and Gender Roles: A Response to Recent Discussion,” TJ 29/2 (2008): 267-83, Giles felt the need to rehash old arguments with the likes of the CBMW boys and a couple of others.  This detracts greatly from his interaction with Bird and Shillaker because unlike Grudem and Ware they argue that the Trinity is NOT a model for male-female relationships, something Giles acknowledges and claims to agree with but in practice does not.  Giles parrots his book Jesus and the Father when he “plead[s] with [his] fellow evangelicals to work out first of all, completely independently of any concerns about the relationship of the sexes, what exactly is the orthodox Christian doctrine of God.” (p. 238 cf. Jesus and the Father, 54)  If only he’d take his own advice!  Giles has no interest in the doctrine of the Trinity in its own right; his is a doctrine that has been crafted precisely to bolster his egalitarianism.  Anyone who has read his two books on the subject or his numerous articles can see this for themselves, so when Giles claims that “[he] do[es] not appeal to [his] co-equal understanding of the Trinity to justify [his] views on the man-woman relationship” and “[i]n thirty years in the debate about the God-given ideal for the man-woman relationship, I have never used this argument” (p. 250) his credibility is seriously called into question.  In the preface to Jesus and the Father he speaks of the side of the debate that rejects subordination (i.e., egalitarians) saying:

The persons of the Trinity are to be understood as “coequal,” each being alike “almighty” and “Lord,” as the Athanasian Creed declares. This understanding of the Trinity, they insist, in no way justifies the permanent subordination of women, or unchangeable hierarchical social ordering in any context. As this particular debate impacts on a little more than half the human race, it would be hard to dispute that how we construe the doctrine of the Trinity is of huge practical consequences. The point seems beyond dispute. A right doctrine of the Trinity is needed for right belief and right behavior. No doctrine could be more important. (Jesus and the Father, 13, emphasis mine)

Seeing as how this post is already long I’ll jot down my other thoughts on the article in another post.

B”H

When the Bible Means Whatever You Want It To

I was talking to my cousin last night and it became more clear to me than ever before that when he reads the Bible he thinks he can force whatever meaning onto the text he’d like.  Of course he can do that if he wants to but he can’t expect to be taken seriously when doing it.  In the midst of his sermon on how Muslims, Christians, and Jews need to come together for the community (a practice to which I am not opposed) he quoted the part of Galatians 3:28 where Paul said: “There is neither Jew nor Greek…”  He asked what this means for us today and concluded (before I could venture an answer to his inquiry) that it means that there is no difference between the Muslim, Christian, and Jew because we all worship one God.  Well, okay, but we don’t all worship the same one God (which became more and more evident the further into his speech he got). The problem is that my cousin takes no thought for the rest of what Paul said in the verse, chapter, and book as a whole.  Paul said that you (= the Christians in the Galatian churches) are all one in Christ Jesus.  His point was that Christians (whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free) are all children of God by faith in Christ (3:26) not by works of the law.  It’s that simple.  But this is no isolated eisegetical incident with my cousin, sadly, it happens all the time.

B”H

Rabbinic Sources on Cain

A friend asked me if I could dig up some rabbinic material on when Cain was cast out of God’s presence.  His underlying question is what do the rabbis have to say about the people that Cain found when he went eastward.  Rabbinic material is hard to come by online and what little there is isn’t searchable so I’ve not found much.  Of course I turned to Rashi’s commentary and on Geneses 4:14-15 he says in part:

whoever finds me will kill me: This refers to the cattle and the beasts, but there were yet no humans in existence whom he should fear, only his father and mother, and he did not fear that they would kill him. But he said, “Until now, my fear was upon all the beasts, as it is written (Gen. 9:2): ‘And your fear, etc.,’ but now, because of this iniquity, the beasts will not fear me, and they will kill me.” Immediately,“and the Lord gave Cain a sign.” He restored his fear upon everyone- [as in ed. Guadalajara, 1476].

That’s relevant to my friend’s question but I’ve not come across much else.  Where should I be looking?  Online sources are preferable since I don’t own a lot of rabbinic material but book references will work too since I’m pretty good about getting my hands on books I don’t have.  Thanks in advance for whatever help you can offer.

B”H

In the Mail

It’s been so long since I got a book in the mail that I forgot how wonderful it is!  Well today I heard the mailman in my driveway which means only one thing: a package too big for the mailbox!  So I went out and discovered a box from Eerdmans inside of which was a copy of Craig Keener’s The Historical Jesus of the Gospels.  This thing is pretty massive at over 800 pages.  In typical Keener fashion more than half of the book consists of notes.  Unfortunately they’re end notes!  I’m really looking forward to this one.

B”H

Preferred Citation System

What’s your preferred citation system?  I generally stick to what the SBL Handbook of Style says but I deviate at times when I feel like it (e.g., when listing the issue number of a journal).  I was talking to Esteban Vázquez last night and he suggested that I get a hold of Turabian1 .  One of the nice things about Logos 4 is that you can choose which citation style you want your footnotes to appear in and Turabian is one of them.  I mentioned that I used to use MLA to which Esteban replied that he avoids it at all costs, even when it’s required!  I can understand that; underlining book titles in bibliographies should be a crime!  Luckily there’s a very truncated Turabian Citation Guide online that gives examples of many of your needs but certainly not all.

B”H

1 Kate L. Turabian, Manual for Writers of Research Papers, Theses, and Dissertations, 7th ed. (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2007).

I Don’t Know Why But…

It doesn’t bother me that Peter Liethart’s blog has no commenting feature.  Same goes for Dave Black.  Generally that’s enough for me condemn one’s site as a non-blog but in Liethart and Black’s case I don’t mind.  I just really enjoy reading their musings (especially Liethart’s on the Trinity of which there is no shortage).  I suppose it has to do with the fact that they write quality stuff and are genuinely pleasant and gracious individuals.  Would that all people who didn’t allow comments on their “blogs” were more like them.

B”H

Generation Gap

David Alan Black, author extraordinaire and all around nice guy, disagrees with me over the best comedians.   Unfortunately I can’t link to the post itself because of the blogging platform he uses, but check the Thursday, December 17, 7:38 AM entry where he says:

Here are the world’s greatest standup comedians: Red Skeleton, Steve Allen, Jack Benny, Abbott and Costello, Johnny Carson, Jackie Gleason, Don Rickles, Bill Cosby, Rodney Dangerfield, the Smothers Brothers, and Robin Williams.

I think this reflects a generation gap more than anything.  A lot of these guys would have never crossed my mind.  Red Skeleton?  Who’s that?  Abbot and Costello?  C’mon, get serious!  I was a little surprised that he didn’t list Bob Hope as well.  I know a lot of older folks loved that guy. ;-)  Good call with Rodney Dangerfield though.  And believe it or not, I love Robin Williams’ movies, but not his stand-up.  In fact he just had an HBO special that I haven’t bothered to watch.

B”H

Hook A Brother Up!

Alright, so Mike Bird announced that the latest issue of the Trinity Journal is out and it features an article by Kevin Giles responding to Mike and Rob Shillaker’s article from last year (in TJ 29/2 [2008]: 267-83) as well as Mike and Rob’s response to Giles.  Naturally I’m very interested in these two articles but the problem is that there is a year delay on my access to the Trinity Journal.  So which one of you kind souls will be good enough to pass along copies of the two articles?

These are their titles:

“Michael Bird and Robert Shillaker: The Son is Not Eternally Subordinated in Authority to the Father” — Kevin Giles

“The Son Really, Really is the Son: A Response to Kevin Giles” 00 Mike Bird and Rob Shillaker

Thanks in advance!

B”H

On Crappy Eulogies

I gotta be honest, most of the things I’ve read people say about Oral Roberts’ after his death suck!  Okay, the guy wasn’t perfect; that goes without saying.  He had some theology that everyone doesn’t agree with; who doesn’t?  BTW, he had extremely long earlobes in his old age; I think folks forgot to criticize him after his death for that too!  Seriously, I wonder how many of these folks lamenting Roberts’ theology and all the supposed harm he’s done to the body point out the flaws in their loved ones after their deaths.  I can’t imagine Al Mohler or whoever standing there at their grandfather’s funeral and saying, “you know, he was a godly man, but he had a gambling problem.”  Or, “he did much for the cause of Christ, but sadly he’s left behind debt that his family will have to pay.”  These are hypothetical examples and I don’t know if either of Mohler’s grandfathers have even passed on, but I’m willing to bet that if/when they did he didn’t go around mentioning the their perceived faults after pointing out all their good.  It’s ridiculous!

B”H