[Chris Tilling's] friend says: but would you say that Paul stands a little bit above everyone else with his theology, at least that is what they perhaps seem to imply here in Tübingen
Which provokes me to ask: Is Paul overrated? In a word, yes! Don’t get me wrong, I love Paul’s epistles (especially Romans, 1Corinthians, and Philippians!), but they pale in comparison to the Gospels in my opinion. Likewise, I think Paul was a genius, but again, when I read Jesus’ words as recounted by the Gospel writers I think Paul takes a back seat every time. So while Chris answered his friend’s question with a qualified affirmative, I’d simply respond with a resounding “nope!” I think Paul stands a lot above everyone else with his theology as long as we don’t include the other Biblical writers in “everyone else.”
B”H
He has disagreed with me!
Good for you, and you may well be right
Just to note: I did mean only in terms of justifcation by faith – and specifically in contrast with what is found in James, I was not speaking generally.
To qualify myself further, I would suggest that Paul is the primary Apostolic witness to the subject of justification, but that this is qualified within the developing canon of the early church, in letters which became important in their qualifying function (in terms of justification). Not sure that will convince you, but it may make it a bit clearer where I am coming from!
“they pale in comparison…” I agree with you one hundred percent. The Gospels rock.
Chris: Thanks for the clarification, I did pick that up from the context of your conversation. But my question is more general and it’s something that I’ve been meaning to ask for a while.
Steph: :-)
I pretty much see and I think I agree with what you are saying. I use to hold Paul in this big pedestal up until a couple of years ago. When it dawned on me that Paul never intended that. All he was trying to do was to point us to Christ, and allow the Holy Spirit to be a living experience within our lives.
I think we put him up there. But if you carefully consider his statements about himself, and how highly he places Christ I think, or rather I should say I would hope that you see that he always places in himself in his proper place — servant.
As much as I love to study Paul’s letters, a whole hearted yes is in order. Because his name bears the bulk of the NT letters, people began treat him as the Christian and theological aficionado. And as much as he tries to vindicate his vision of Jesus in Galatians, he never walked with Jesus like all the other apostle’s did.
It’s like Coke and Dr. Pepper, both are delicious and your ultimate preference depends on taste. (Pepsi is from the pit of hell)
I agree. I notice that an abundance of people love to study Paul, not that there’s anything wrong with that, but I’ve always been more interested in Jesus. People also say that the real doctrine is in Paul’s epistles but I think it’s right there in the Gospels too.
Jeff
Paul seems a little too cocky sometimes – like when he says “I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you”. Maybe I’m missing some cultural context?
I wonder if we are asking the wrong question. Chris admits that he was speaking of Paul’s importance in relation to justification. So, how much emphasis do we need to place on justification? Is it overrated because of Luther?
Jeremiah knows what he is talking about!
Wasn’t Paul merely expounding on Old Testament Theology?
Will – I don’t know if justification is overrated per se. It’s a pretty important thing. After all is not Romans 3 considered the heart of the gospel? Or is that just the semi-reformed in me talking?
Also, if Paul isn’t that important – how come post on his letters tend to get so much attention?
Can’t we say Paul is/was a theologian/missionary par excellance?
Robert: Good point, but even if Paul considered himself the greatest theologian of all time I’d still say that he wasn’t as deep as Jesus.
Owen: Very true.
Jeremiah: I agree with the general point you’re making but I can not sign off on your blatanly demonic heresy! Pepsi is the nectar of God, period!
Jeff: I agee 100%
Kevin: I think his point there was that speaking in tongues is good and well as long as it’s done properly. I don’t think he was really being cocky there.
Will: I think my question is the right question for what I was wondering about, but your question is a good one also. To answer yours I’d say that justification by faith ALONE is absolutely overrated because of Luther. As I see it, Sola Fide is a secondary doctrine. I’m not of the opinion that one must believe in Sola Fide in order to be saved or to be a genuine Christian.
Brian: I don’t think anyone is saying that Paul isn’t important. I’m saying that he’s not the cream of the crop. If I compare Paul to other Biblical writers then I think that all of the authors of the Gospels have him beat (because they record Jesus’ words!) and I’d put Isaiah above him as well.
People, read the “four Gospels” not the “Synoptics” only to know exactly what Nick is talking about. Nick, you are correct again!
I’m an official member of the Johannine community…although I’m not sure a Johannine community existed…but I like John, his epistles and the Revelation.
This is a great discussion, I’m sorry I’m getting in on it so late. Paul was right to consider himself the greatest theologian of all time next to Jesus, but he really had to be since he was given the responsibility of taking the gospel to the Gentiles. Paul’s no poet, to be sure, but in terms of application of doctrine to life, he’s the man.
…Pepsi is like cheap beer (not always bad), Coke (Diet Coke actually) is like a really good imported beer (great with everything), and Dr. Pepper is like a fine wine (for special occasions). When will you northerners get that?
Good point, Nick, about the over-emphasis of the by faith alone part. I think you are right, and maybe that’s what I meant!
Tom Wright often says that evangelicals give the impression that to understand what the gospel is, we turn to Paul (ie, how to get saved). The Gospels more or less just provide some interesting stories of Jesus that gives background to what Paul is talking about. I am sure this is sort of an exaggeration, but growing up in an evangelical environment this seems to be the unwritten storyline. No one would have ever actually said it as Wright does, but it sounds familiar.
As someone who, following in the steps of the infallible Moisés Silva, has devoted a great deal of time and energy to the interpretation of the Pauline Epistles (especially Romans and Galatians), I must say that it is not for nothing that we Orthodox quite literally venerate the Gospels as the “written icon” of Christ. They are, in fact, the heart of the Scriptures, and everything else either points to them, or flows from them.
Will: Intrerestingly enough, in Pentecostal circles (at least those within I’ve moved over the past 6+ years) the Gospels enjoy pride of place (contrary to the claim that Acts is the most important for us).
Esteban: Well said. If only I could get over that standing all service thing I’d become Orthodox. :-)
Geez, no kidding about the standing up thing!
Will, re Tom Wright — I would love to read the Gospels (particularly the Synoptics) and see anything remotely like Paul in them. I don’t know what my problem is that I have such trouble seeing it — perhaps my fear of being deluded into believing in their unity just because I want to makes me too sensitive to the Jesus vs Paul debate.
Heck no Paul is not overrated!
Jesus is great for some nice ethics and his emphasis on God as father (plus the fact that he’s the Savior) but it’s Paul that gives us all the good theology: Pneumetology, Christology, Ecclesiology, Eschatology (specifically in regards to the resurrection), Soteriology, Ethics, etc…
He gives us so much more on those topics than all the rest of the NT authors including the Gospels. Sure some of the other NT writers might make good contributions to a few of those topics but it’s Paul that gives us significant stuff on all of those topics.
Seriously you could keep one Gospel, one of the non-Pauline letters and all of Paul’s letters and you wouldn’t be missing much from the NT. ; )
Bryan L
If you love the OT…I think you love Paul…He can never be over-rated! Without the understanding of how we can be reconciled to God through the Blood of Jesus…we would be no better off than the Israelites of the OT. Always reaching for an unattainable goal with the anti upped through the more excellent standard Jesus taught! There was so much more that the disciples needed to know and yet…they were unable to receive it at that time. Jesus taught the reality of the Father apart from a data base full of rules…the Holy Spirit through Paul’s explanations brought it down to where the rubber meets the road…”Yes we can!”
Wow, looks like I missed a few comments. My bad.
Celucien: Exactly, you can’t leave John out, you just can’t!!!
Ranger: Yes, John’s Gospel is my favorite (tied with Mark) and like you I’m not sure that there was any so-called Johannine community. I think Bauckham did an excellent job of taking that theory to task in Testimony of the Beloved Disciple.
Peter: I’ll forgive the blasphemy of your last paragraph. Yes, Paul is the man, but so was Isaiah and Ezekiel and whoever wrote 1-2 Peter. As wonderful as all these texts are they are far inferior to the Gospels in my opinion.
Marcy: I’m of the opinion that a definite unity exists but that one needn’t harmonize everything in the NT to see it.
Bryan: Your enthusiasm only serves as an example of Paul’s overestimation! ;-)
Nancy: Paul was a master of using the OT, but then again so was Matthew (even more so in my opinion).
Jesus didn’t choose Matthew, Mark, Luke, John (or perhaps the Beloved Disciple) to lead the advance of the church on its new frontier…He chose Saul of Taursus…
When Saul returns to Antioch, with Barnabas, after their first missionary trip, it is with great rejoicing that they confirm that God’s Word indeed accomplished the purpose for which it was sent, for among the Gentiles…those appointed to eternal life believed! The door for the Gentiles had been opened; the line of those who were to pass through it would reach thousands of years into the future!
the love of Pepsi is directly tied to Depravity
Some would say Jesus chose Peter, not Saul … perhaps Jesus was more concerned with the kingdom of God coming than anticipating the need for leadership over the next couple of thousand years. But that’s just because I take Mark as “gospel truth” :-)
Steph: Yeah, I’m going to have to agree again. And I do seem to remember reading something about Jesus building his Church on Peter.
Genesis to Revelation…all “gospel truth”! Peter and Paul had two distinctly different callings…neither of which has been overrated…*: )
The wishy-washy and the totally single-minded are equally saved by grace…*; )
Will and Nick> Oh, grow up! At the very least, standing through a three-hour service will teach you that you’re not the center of the universe. ;-)
Nancy: I don’t think the callings were overrated, just the importance that some folks attribute to Paul over everyone else. That’s all.
Esteban: But if I’m fearfully and wonderfully made in God’s image then I am the center of the universe am I not?!!
Someone should do a comparison of the rates of obesity amongst Orthodox as compared to us Baptists in our cushy pews.
Bwahahaha!
Nick:
1. Jesus building His church on Peter: Pete had broad shoulders, he did.
2. You can’t be the center of the universe because someone else already is.
3. It’s Mountain Dew amongst the people I work with.
4. I’d say more but you’d think me “long-winded”.
Chuck: I thought that after #2…
Nick: Right. No more effort trying to get you a copy of Comfort’s “New Testament Text and Translation Commentary”.
Instead I’ll go see what James White’s got on his Wish List! ;-)
Chuck: In the immortal words of Master Yoda: “Do, or do not, there is no try.”
Nick: If it had been on your wish list you might have gotten it. But now I’m saving my pennies for James White’s copy of Lampe’s Patristic Lexicon.
And that’s a lot of pennies. Yowzer!
Chuck: If I knew such thoughts were roaming around the contours of your mind I would have added it to my wish list months ago! I do plan on getting it eventually, but money’s been tight since the purchase of the Xbox 360 and the new laptop. I do have some gift certificates coming from Amazon in the next couple of months so maybe, just maybe I’ll put some of that money toward Comfort.
Nick: Too late. The surprise is gone. It’ll have to be the collected works of Kevin Giles. The autographs will take a little time, but be on the look out.
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Chuck: Thanks, but no thanks! I’ve already got the Giles books and I’m currently in the process of converting them to toilet paper.
Nick: Okay. There’s always the Greg Boyd collection.
Precisely – attributed to Jesus in Matt 16.18, a saying sometimes highlighted by the Catholic Church.