This is a four part series in response to four Youtube videos from two Oneness Pentecostal ministers–Pastor Scott Phillips and Dr. Mike Dobbs–in which they espouse a number of errors.
Part 1: Joel 2:28 – Baptism
Part 2: Pagan Christianity – The Name of God
Part 3: No Distinction? - Yahweh & Yeshua
Part 4: Triune vs. Tripartite - Conclusion
B”H
Nick,
First let me say that I immensely enjoy your site. Although I am a first time poster, I have followed it for quite some time. In particular, your writings concerning oneness pentecostalism have benefited me greatly, and for that I give glory to God. I’m writing because I have a question concerning baptism. Being a former oneness pentecostal, myself, my wife and all three of my children have been baptized in Jesus name. We have since left the oneness movement, and are now a part of a bible believing church which teaches the truth of the word. From what you’ve researched and studied, do you think it is necessary for all of us to be re-baptized into the trinitarian formula? The reason I ask is because I strongly believe that in all of our cases the essential elements were there at the first baptism (ie., repentance, faith in Christ, profession). Now, concerning my kids (and maybe even my wife and I), I wouldn’t go on record as saying we would have been able to COMPLETELY articulate the gospel at that point, but I do believe regeneration had occurred and that God was at work, even though we were in a oneness church. If you need any amplifying details, I’ll be happy to provide them. Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated, and I hope to hear from you soon.
P.S.
(Although I think Eminem was dope lyrically, I believe NAS could give him a run for his money…Are you familiar with doctrinally sound, holy hip hoppers such as Timothy Brindle, Shai Linne, Lacrea, Flame, Tripp Lee and Stephen the Levite???…)
Soli Deo Gloria,
Craig
By: Craig C on October 20, 2008
at 8:19 am
Craig: Welcome, and thanks for the kind words! To answer your question, my Protestant nature tells me that baptism isn’t essential for salvation so if you decide not to be re-baptized then you’ll be alright, but the trinitarian in me says take another dip in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Here’s my thing (and I’m sure this will come as no shock to you), I believe that Oneness doctrine is heresy and that Oneness believers are heretics. Baptism by heretics is something that was prevalent in the early Church and it’s an issue that some early Christian writers such as Cyprian and Firmilian wrote quite a bit about. There’s even an entire Treatise on Re-Baptism by an anonymous writer. The general concensus was that baptism by heretics was not valid. Tertullian sums up my thinking on the issue with what seems to be quite harsh words:
I hope that helps.
P.S. — If you see my top 10 rapper list you’ll find Nas at #2 and Eminem at #5. You might also want to check out my apologetic defense of Nas’ Illmatic.
And yes, I am quite familiar with the bunch you’ve mentioned. I reviewed Trip Lee’s 20/20 a couple of months back and I’m going to be reviewing Lecrae’s new album Rebel in the near future. Also, if you type “Stephen the Levite” into the search box above you’ll come across a number of posts in which I express my appreciation for his ability. In my mind those guys are the only Christian rappers worth listening to.
Thanks for commenting, I hope you keep coming back! :)
By: Nick Norelli on October 20, 2008
at 9:38 am
Nick,
Thanks for the quick response!!! I really appreciate the reference to the treatise on re-baptism. I briefly reviewed it, and I will definitely study it futher as I continue to bathe this issue in prayer. It’s funny you should say “take another dip”, because what I didn’t mention was that I’ve been baptized in Jesus’ name 3 times, and my wife has done it 4 times…Yeah, I know…sounds crazy right?!?!?…Well, this is just a small slice of the ridiculous theology that we were being subjected to in our past…But that’s another story for another day. Perhaps I’ll share it with you sometime…Anyways, thanks for your scholarly and in-depth response, which was nothing less than what I expected, and is always a blessing…
P.S.
I am in complete agreement with your apologetic defense of the classic Illmatic album. However, I have one aught against thee my friend…By your mention of Rakim, I assume your list is in reference to “The Top Ten of All Time”, and not just “The Top Ten of the Last 10 or 15 years”. Therefore, I believe it to be a grievious sin and a total abomination to have done the following:
1. Leave the blastmaster Chris (KRS-1) out of the top ten and even honorable mention.
2. Leave the genius Common out of the top ten. (How could you sleep on this guy? “I Used to Love Her”???)
3. Put Rakim in “honorable mention” and not in the top ten.
Now, I suspect that you are a bit younger than I, but judging from the fact that you mentioned in one of the comments that you were brought up on hip hop from the days of DMC, I feel vindicated to withstand you to the face as Paul did Peter. Please accept this rebuke with love….:)
Furthermore, so as not to incite a riot with you, I will reserve my judgement upon Mr. Shakur, the overweight one who told us to “Lean Back” and the emcee who was not a player but “liked to crush a lot”….(smile…)
Soli Deo Gloria,
Craig
Craig
By: Craig C on October 20, 2008
at 10:58 am
Craig: It’s funny because I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church and then again (a number of times) in my (Pentecostal) church. I really just enjoy baptism and there’s no reason for my many baptisms past that. The first time in my church was my baptism as a born again believer and member of that church and the others were all occasions where I was doing the baptizing along with another minister and thought I might as well take another dip while I was in the pool. :)
As far as your rebuke is concerned, I humbly accept it regarding Mr. Knowledge Reign Supreme Over Nearly Everyone, but in my defense, my list was comprised of rappers from what I have termed the “Golden Era” of rap (c. 1992-98). You can read more about this in this post where I do pay homage to BDP among others.
As far as Common is concerned, he was great for his first few albums but once he started dating Eryka Badu he just got weird (as it seems all the men who date her do). I haven’t really enjoyed any of his albums past One Day It’ll All Make Sense. But as you can see from this comment, I consider “I Used to Love H.E.R.” one of the greatest rap metaphors of all time.
And for the record, those who like Tupac are more heretical than any Oneness believer I’ve ever encountered!!! ;)
By: Nick Norelli on October 20, 2008
at 12:52 pm
Nick,
I feel you on the baptism issue…Funny story:
One bible study our former pastor (a oneness guy) was teaching on Revelation 2. He proceeded to say that the when the writer mentioned returning to your “first works”, that it meant if you ever committed a sin after you were saved (he rattled off about 20 sins, at least 10 of which I know I had committed since I was saved) that you had to go back to your “first works”. As you know, in a oneness church this means repenting and being baptized all over again. Wanting to be obedient and out of fear that if God would come back that minute I would be lost for not being baptized, I was the first to walk to the altar and do it. I really thought I would be the only one, but imagine my amazement when behind me 80 people stood up to be baptized in Jesus’ name!! So, a 2-hour bible study turned out to be a 7 hour baptismal service—for folks who had already been baptized!!! As if this wasn’t enough, all of the people that weren’t at bible study did it on Sunday morning!!!! Ahhhh the memories…LOL!!!
Ok, since you have explained yourself you gain a reprieve. Pac was instrumental in painting a picture of his culture and relating to the struggles of his people, and I think just for that he deserves at least honorable mention. However, lyrically there are many who out distance him by a long shot. I suppose you have a point with Common, but I still think he should get a top ten nod. Maybe he should get the nod solely on the basis of putting up with Ms. Badu!!!
Sidenote: Have you ever had (or prayed about having) a formal debate with Jason Dulle?
http://theosophical.wordpress.com/
He seems to be an OP with a different flavor…I think he encountered Robert Bowman one time and I was satisfied with Robert’s responses to him…However, I haven’t been able to retrieve the link where they were responding to one another, because I think it was part of the section of the blog that crashed sometime ago over at Parchment and Pen…Just wanted to know if you ever considered it…
Soli Deo Gloria,
Craig
By: Craig C on October 20, 2008
at 3:38 pm
Craig: Wow! That’s crazy! In my church we’re just called to the altar to pray if we have sin in our lives!
I’m familiar with Dulle and Brian LePort asked me if I’d be interested in debating him (i.e. Dulle) earlier this year. Because I take such matters so seriously and Dulle is obviously smarter than the average bear, I declined because I just don’t have the time I feel I’d need to devote to preparing for such a debate.
And I remember the interaction between him and Bowman well. I also commented quite frequently on those posts in exchange with another Oneness believer, but sadly as you already know, they were lost in the crash. Thank God the posts themselves were able to be restored.
By: Nick Norelli on October 20, 2008
at 4:45 pm
Hey Nick,
I did a search for this on your blog and nothing came up, so I just thought I’d share it with you just in case you hadn’t heard of it before (although my gut instinct tells me you probably have!). It’s what rocks in my whip and will probably get more play on my ipod in the near future, and it’s called sermon jams. Here’s the link for you to check it out. Enjoy!
http://www.1031sermonjams.com/
Soli Deo Gloria,
Craig
By: Craig C on October 21, 2008
at 3:19 pm
Craig: I haven’t come across this before. Thanks for pointing it out.
By: Nick Norelli on October 21, 2008
at 5:46 pm