I should have gone to sleep hours ago but for some reason or another I didn’t. I was flipping through the channels and I came across a show that I’ve seen a few times on TCT (ch. 377 on DIRECTV) called Ask the Pastor. The premise is simple, people call in with questions and a pannel of pastors from different denominational backgrounds answer the questions.
Someone called in and asked about drinking wine. The first pastor I saw (I came in after the question was asked so I don’t know how many addressed the question before him) said that in some cultures, drinking wine is normative and perfectly acceptable. That’s a decent enough answer. The next pastor said that as Christians we’re called to moderation, which includes drinking wine. I couldn’t agree more.
The last pastor to answer the question went off on a tirade, quoting Proverbs and then misquoting 1Timothy 3 (he said that Paul forbade people to drink wine). Then he presented some convoluted argument about new wine and old wine saying that Jesus didn’t drink old wine (i.e., fermented alcoholic wine) but he only drank (and produced at the wedding in Cana) new wine (i.e., grape juice). But none of that is new to me, I’ve heard it all before.
Here’s what got me: this pastor quoted some statistic (I don’t know how accurate it was but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt) about alcohol related fatal car accidents and then said that alcohol is a huge problem in this country. True enough, no argument there. But here’s the punchline: He then closed by saying that instead of taking care of that problem, we’re out passing laws against driving with cell phones!
Umm… but pastor, there’s laws against driving under the influence of alcohol as well!!! Stuff like that makes me wonder if he had a little wine before the program was taped.
B”H
Ah, that ‘Jesus turned the water into grape juice’ is my favourite argument! Talk about reading into the text!
Nice picture of the good bishop!
By: Will on July 17, 2008
at 3:55 am
You mean there are churches that don’t use grape juice? Well, the SBC never told me that one….
Hmm. I dunno. Might have to caption this one “Hey, you! Get your own glass!!”
Someone hurry up and move onto the “but their wine was almost always watered down” argument, already.
By: Chuck Grantham on July 17, 2008
at 4:03 am
Chuck-
My SBC church uses wine-
….or grape juice. Whichever your conscious permits.
What? You think a Baptist church would ONLY use wine? ;)
By: Bryan on July 17, 2008
at 6:39 am
Methodist standing orders do not allow wine on the premises, so it has to be grape juice at communion!
By: Will on July 17, 2008
at 8:52 am
In that picture, Wright is drinking alcohol free beer, right? :)
By: Yvette on July 17, 2008
at 10:43 am
I just don’t know why you had to spoil my morning plastering a picture of That Man on my screen.
By: Esteban Vázquez on July 17, 2008
at 11:13 am
Will: Exactly! And yeah, that’s one of my favorite N.T. Wright (pbuh) pictures. He’s obviously poised to spit in that beer to keep an audience member from drinking it. The good bishop would never defile himself with alcohol! ;)
Chuck: Ahh… the watered down argument. If that ain’t the red headed step-child of the grape juice argument then I don’t know what is. Good caption too!
Bryan: My Pentecostal church uses grape juice. Most folks in my church believe it’s a sin to drink wine. Sad, ain’t it?
Will (again): Interesting. How many ministers get caught violating that order? ;)
Yvette: Yeah, he’s performed the first miracle of turning beer into water! Beer colored/flavored water that is! ;)
Esteban: Aww c’mon, you know you love the good bishop Wright (pbuh). ;)
By: Nick Norelli on July 17, 2008
at 11:18 am
Um… I really, really don’t. Trust me–I tried, but I couldn’t. Which was alright, but then I met the Wrightianists. ;-)
By: Esteban Vázquez on July 17, 2008
at 12:54 pm
Bryan: SBCers don’t use wine because it might make them dance, and as we all know, WASPs can’t dance. That’s the real reason so many SBC church constitutions forbid drinking and dancing. “Let’s not embarass ourselves any more than necessary.”
Me, I drink, but only when someone else is buying. I dance, but don’t get much call for the Robot and the Funky Chicken. In fact, my only two dances are usually forbidden. Darnit.
By: Chuck Grantham on July 17, 2008
at 1:06 pm
[...] that there’s a strong teetotal tradition among some Protestants, I was genuinely surprised by the stupidity of the eisegesis Nick refers to [...]
By: MetaCatholic » The Bible says booze on July 17, 2008
at 1:16 pm
Esteban: Honestly, I haven’t read enough of Wright to like or dislike him. But if West is against him then he must be doing something right! ;)
Chuck: Oh no, not more talk of robots and chickens! :O
By: Nick Norelli on July 17, 2008
at 1:18 pm
The good Bishop! This ought to be pronounced a sin, I say. :-)
By: tc robinson on July 17, 2008
at 2:01 pm
Stuff like that makes me wonder if he had a little wine before the program was taped.
hahahaha
It’s all about moderation. If Jesus was here I could totally imagine him going for a beer with me. I reckon I’d have a few questions for him!
By: Ferg on July 17, 2008
at 2:09 pm
Could I have Scripture for “called to moderation”? Thanks.
Jeff
By: Scripture Zealot on July 17, 2008
at 2:38 pm
Jeff, when you drink, just don’t get drunk and you’ll be ok. :-)
By: tc robinson on July 17, 2008
at 2:41 pm
He makes….wine that gladdens the heart of man!
PS 104:15
By: Ferg on July 17, 2008
at 2:59 pm
TC: Other than the whole justification thing, what’s your beef with Wright?
Ferg: Well, if not a beer than at least a glass of merlot. It does after all, ‘gladden the heart!’ ;)
Jeff: Sure, I’d think that 2Timothy 4:5 (be clear-headed [ISV] / sober-minded [ESV] / self-controlled [NET]) would serve as a good example although the wording is different. I also think that Galatians 5:23 which lists ’self-control’ as fruit of the Spirit would be appropriate.
By: Nick Norelli on July 17, 2008
at 3:04 pm
His eschatology. Have you read his Surprised by Hope? He refers to the Rapture as nonsense. I guess he’ll be going through the Tribulation. I think at the end, he’ll get it. :-)
By: tc robinson on July 17, 2008
at 3:11 pm
TC: I’ve only read bits and pieces of The New Testament and the People of God and a couple of online essays. But don’t tell me you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture?!! If you do then that makes two of us, probably the only two in the biblioblogosphere! :)
By: Nick Norelli on July 17, 2008
at 3:13 pm
Referred here from TC’s site.
Christians should have stood up to the prohibitionists (and exhibitionists for that matter) of old. We need to stand up to them now. They are the modern day Pharisees.
By: Stan McCullars on July 17, 2008
at 4:16 pm
Nick, What they say, “Great minds think alike?”
By: tc robinson on July 17, 2008
at 4:20 pm
Chuck-
I drink, but not in the last year, or the next few years, due to restrictions of a certain flagship seminary.
Dancing- well, I’ve already admitted to drinking before, and in the future, so I plead the 5th here. I want to get my degree after all!
By: Bryan on July 17, 2008
at 4:59 pm
Stan: Legalism is alive and well.
TC: They do say that, don’t they?
Bryan: That’s funny, I don’t drink but due to a hatred of legalism I defend those who do.
By: Nick Norelli on July 17, 2008
at 5:17 pm
Thanks Nick (and TC).
If I could veer off topic: I never liked that “everything in moderation” thing. Too inclusive. It would be interesting to make a list of things we shouldn’t do in moderation like love the Lord your God with all your mind soul strength, love others, praying, seeking, etc.
Jeff
By: Scripture Zealot on July 17, 2008
at 6:15 pm
TC and Nick,
I thought a pretrib rapture was America’s biggest export? Surely, you two aren’t the only ones!
:)
By: Bryan on July 17, 2008
at 6:18 pm
Jeff: I hear what you’re saying, and it’s a valid point, but I think commonly the statement is made with regard to things that can become vices or lead to sin.
Bryan: But amongst bibliobloggers we are certainly in the minority. Well, at least the minority of those who will admit it. ;)
By: Nick Norelli on July 17, 2008
at 6:20 pm
TC and Nick,
I thought a pretrib rapture was America’s biggest export? Surely, you two aren’t the only ones!
Bryan, there you go! :-)
By: tc robinson on July 17, 2008
at 7:30 pm
:D
By: Bryan on July 17, 2008
at 10:21 pm
I contributed a chapter on “What Would Jesus Drink?” to a volume on Religion and Alcohol edited by Chuck Robertson, engaging precisely the sort of exegesis referred to here…
By: James McGrath on July 18, 2008
at 9:57 am
James: Has the volume published yet? If so, what’s the title? And is there any chance you could email me a copy of your contribution? I’d be interested in reading it.
By: Nick Norelli on July 18, 2008
at 11:43 am