This originally started as a comment to TC’s recent post, but it grew too long so I decided to post it here.
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I think that one of the big problems with people going to meetings like this [i.e. Todd Bentley's] is that they expect the minister to do the healing. The mindset is “if I could only get him to lay hands on me…” I’ve seen it plenty of times. But the problem is that while they were waiting for that “moment” to happen they might have deprived themselves of receiving their healing during the time of praise and worship or the sermon.
I’ve seen Bentley’s services and they sing praise and worship songs for a long time, but that is exactly the right atmosphere for healing and miracles to occur. It’s in the midst of God’s presence that we’re healed and what is praise and worship if not the ushering in of the presence of God? I’d like to think that believers should be able to get what they need during that time.
But then that leads into a criticism that I’ve had for quite some time, and that’s with believers feeling the need to attend meetings like this at all. We all serve the same God, are filled with the same Holy Spirit, and read the same Bible. I should be able to receive what I need from God at home just as easily as I should be able to receive it at a Bentley meeting. Todd Bentley may be gifted for a specific ministry, but he doesn’t have any more power than any other Spirit-filled believer.
Now, as to TC’s post, I don’t think that anyone should be refused prayer. There should be a team of ministers readily available to lay hands and pray (obviously one man can’t do it all alone, although Oral Roberts used to try). There should also be a general prayer said for everyone in attendance. To simply refuse prayer is unacceptable. I don’t think that Bentley or his team should be defended on this point. [Update: In a comment to TC's post, Peter Kirk noted the section of Dembski's testimony where he admits that there was a general prayer said. I must have glossed over this in my initial reading.]
But healing is a tricky business and there’s so many factors at work. There’s the faith of the person in need, as well as the faith of the person praying. There’s the level of knowledge of what Scripture says concerning healing that both the person praying and the person receiving prayer have. We also have to account for the possibility of hidden sin both of the person praying and the person in need. I’m sure there are a lot of things that I’m glossing over, but that just goes to show that healing really is tricky business.
I think I’m going to post a couple of quotes from Kenneth Hagin later today on the subject of healing (gag or rejoice accordingly).
B”H
Well said, Nick! Especially the first two paragraphs. My vicar (pastor) who was recently in Lakeland noted that in fact there most people were healed during the praise and worship time, and when they came forward it was not for healing but to testify.
I look forward to the Kenneth Hagin quotes!
By: Peter Kirk on July 15, 2008
at 4:53 pm
At one church I attended a man was healed of blindness (medically proven) and the sermon wasn’t even about healing.
By: brianfulthorp on July 15, 2008
at 6:44 pm
This is very well-thought out, Nick, and a very good corrective to what seems to be ‘hero worship’ that some have of Bentley. I must admit I don’t know much about him and what I do know comes from what I have read on other blogs. I simply don’t want to enter the debate about him, and this is actually the first time I have responded on any blog about him.
While I want to say I agree with you, I don’t know if I can go the full way. I don’t doubt that God can heal through the music and sermon, but I wonder if that in some sense separates healing from the community environment. Jesus interacted and touched the people whom he healed, as did the apostles. Even when interaction seemed impossible, something seemed to be exchanged between people, such as the two cases in Acts with Peter’s shadow and Paul’s handkerchief, though I don’t think I would describe those situations as ‘normal’. And James gives the command for elders to anoint with oil. I am sure that you could make the case of being in a worship service fulfils the community aspect, but the way you describe the hypothetical situation emphasises a more ethereal (for lack of a better word) approach when I would want to say that God’s Spirit chooses to move through the interaction within the community.
Perhaps a different way to look at it is how your fellow Pentecostal Telford Work has talked about baptism vs. the ’sinner’s prayer’. The ’sinner’s prayer’ favoured by many evangelicals as the focus on when a person is ’saved’ takes away the need for community involvement (you can, as you say with healing, do this in your room alone), whereas baptism requires someone to baptise as the representative of the community.
I don’t know if I would go as far as you do to about the sin in someone’s life or the lack of faith, but you are spot on with saying that there is simply more going on in healing that we can possibly know, and that I think is something we don’t consider. Of course, at the end of the day, what eventually happened to those Jesus and the apostles healed? They became ill again, and eventually died. True healing won’t come until the resurrection.
By: Will on July 15, 2008
at 6:52 pm
Todd Bentley is going to be at my church, [Evangel World Prayer Center, located in Louisville, Ky] this Thursday. A few months ago, there in Lakeland, he prophesied about an angel of the Lord coming to him. The angel blew a trumpet and a scroll came out that said REVIVAL IN LOUISVILLE KY. Bentley said a man named BOB RODGERS was on the scroll, indicating that it would be connected to him in some way. Coincidently, there were some folks from my church that were there, and we prayed for so that “the anointing” could be taken back. Pastor Rodgers went and talked with him, and so he is supposed to come.
[note: I am putting this here not because I agree with all of this, or disagree, but to share the story and say how he is coming to my church.]
By: Troy C on July 15, 2008
at 6:56 pm
Brian: Praise God, that’s awesome!
Will: I hear what you’re saying and I don’t necessarily disagree. I believe in the laying on of hands by elders in the context of a church gathering. And you’re correct in that I would make the argument for receiving healing during the time of praise and worship as fulfilling the communal aspect.
But with reference to Jesus’ and the disciples’/apostles’ healing ministry, you’ll notice that they weren’t going around healing believers. These works were signs to confirm the gospel, signs that led to people placing their faith in Christ and devoting their lives to him. I’m talking about the person who has already done that, i.e., the Spirit-filled believer. Who is truly the representative of the community if not the Spirit of God?
With reference to sin and lacking faith, I’m basing that primarily on the witness of Scripture, but also on personal experience. Jesus couldn’t do much in Nazareth because they lacked belief. Isaiah said that Israel’s sin had alienated them from God and caused God not to listen to their prayers.
But I agree 100% that we won’t be completely healed until the resurrection. Everything before that is temporary.
Troy: Make sure you report back after he comes there. If you’re willing, I’d like for you to write about it and I’ll post it on the blog. Let me know.
By: Nick Norelli on July 15, 2008
at 7:14 pm
Sure Nick, I’ll write about it. In fact, I’ll try to put some time into it, [though I can't predict how long it will be (or short)]. The only reason I may not get to write about it would be if I have to work overtime Thursday, which may pose a small problem for me to go. I hope to though.
Check your Yahoo Messenger. I sent you a friend request.
By: Troy C on July 15, 2008
at 7:57 pm
Nick:
You said,
“But with reference to Jesus’ and the disciples’/apostles’ healing ministry, you’ll notice that they weren’t going around healing believers.”
Can you follow this up a bit? Isn’t it somewhat anachronistic to refer to “believers” in the time of Jesus since he was ministering to Israel and there was no Jews and Christians split? Also do you think people, Jews, who Jesus was preaching to and doing wonders for were really placing their faith in him and devoting their lives to him in the way we modern day Christians think of doing that. It makes it seem like Jesus was going around and doing his thing and some were realizing that he was God and they needed to just have faith in him and develop a “person relationship” with him.
you also said,
“that’s with believers feeling the need to attend meetings like this at all. We all serve the same God, are filled with the same Holy Spirit, and read the same Bible. I should be able to receive what I need from God at home just as easily as I should be able to receive it at a Bentley meeting. Todd Bentley may be gifted for a specific ministry, but he doesn’t have any more power than any other Spirit-filled believer. ”
That sounds nice theoretically but I think people, through experience, realize that sometimes God works in extra powerful ways more in certain places and through certain people. And that even if theoretically I should be able to receive what i need from God at home just as easily, a lot (or most) of times people don’t and it’s only when they go to these places where God’s presence and work seems concentrated. And if people go and experience that that is the case then I see no problem with continuing to believe that is what they must sometimes (or often) do. Sometimes experience is a more powerful shaper of our theology that supplements and corrects our beliefs.
Besides could we really say from the Bible that God’s wonder working power is equally available to all believers wherever they are and there is no need to go to special places or be prayed for or anointed by special people? It seems that the Bible only reinforces that view that God’s wonder working power is often concentrated in certain places and through certain people.
Blessings,
Bryan L
By: Bryan L on July 15, 2008
at 11:25 pm
Troy: I hope you get to attend. I’d like to get a first hand testimony from someone I know about what it’s like live.
Bryan: I don’t think it’s anachronistic at all. I’m not setting Jews in opposition to Christians, I’m setting those who repented and believed the Gospel against those who didn’t. Also, I don’t know that there’s a difference between what I think it means to devote one’s life to Jesus and what a first century Jew would have thought. I don’t think we share the same presuppositions with regard to this because what you say it “makes it seem like” doesn’t seem that way to me at all.
As for my other statements, there’s nothing theoretical about them. I’m a witness both personally and through many believers that I know that this is exactly the case. The major problem from my experience, is that it is the believers who aren’t getting what they went to receive at these meetings. If you read TC’s post this was clearly the case with Dembski and his family. Is this to say that believers shouldn’t attend these meetings? Not at all. It’s just to say that they don’t have to. I can’t imagine that being too controversial a position.
As for your last statement, it depends on what you mean by ’special places’ I guess. I acknowledge the need for fellowship in the context of a believing church community. I acknowledge the mandate for the laying on of hands by elders in the course of a service. What I don’t acknowledge is the belief that believer’s need to run to a Bentley or a Hinn meeting to get healed.
I also think that the distinction that Kenneth Hagin calls for in my more recent post is an important one. Not every healing is the result of a miraculous manifestation. I was healed of a disease without anyone laying hands on me or praying for me. I simply stood on the Word and was healed by my faith in what it said.
So yeah, I believe that we can really say that God’s healing power is available equally to all. Why? Because the atonement was. Whether or not all take advantage of it is a different story. But as I said to Will, we don’t see believers rushing in droves to Jesus and the Apostles to be healed, do we?
By: Nick Norelli on July 16, 2008
at 12:06 am
Nick, the healing ministry of Todd Bentley is itself a tricky business. If I accept his ministry without reservation, some are going to call me naive, misguided and so on. But if I reject his ministry without reservation, so are going to call me narrow-minded and misguided and so on.
It’s tricky business indeed…
By: tc robinson on July 16, 2008
at 12:34 am
TC: 1Thessalonians 5:21 comes to mind: “test everything, hold on to the good.”
By: Nick Norelli on July 16, 2008
at 12:58 am
1.) “But as I said to Will, we don’t see believers rushing in droves to Jesus and the Apostles to be healed, do we?”
Generally when the Gospels speaks of Jesus healing it just speaks of him healing everyone. That does not exclude those who were followers of him or that already beleived his message was true. Everyone is everyone.
2.) But I’m a little confused though what your point was in saying that believers aren’t coming to Jesus for healing? Are you saying that they had the ability to be healed without intervention from Jesus or his apostles or are you saying that Jesus wouldn’t heal them because the healings had a different purpose other than just making people well? Something else?
3.) “I’m setting those who repented and believed the Gospel against those who didn’t.”
Doesn’t this become circular though? You’re saying you don’t see believers coming to Jesus to be healed yet you also say that believers are those who heard his message and I’m assuming witnessed his healings and may have even been the recipients of those healings which made them become believers. If they are believers possibly because they were healed then why would they need to keep coming to him? Were people being healed of one disease to only acquire another one shortly after?
4.) And I want to follow up a little more on my claim that it sounded anachronistic to speak of believers in the time of Jesus. I’m curious what you think it meant for someone to believe the Gospel and devote their life to Jesus during the time of his ministry. Many could probably not follow him around so what would it mean for the person to go home to his life after becoming a believer? How would his life as an observant Jew be any different? What would distinguish him from his neighbor who was not a beleiver?
To follow up on this and tie it together, if Jesus came back to town and this believer needed healing how would we distinguish him in the crowd of people who were also coming out to see Jesus and be healed.
5.) Lastly my point about having to go to these meeting or special people to be healed is that when some people do not receive any healing at home or in their church and then they do go to these meeting or special people and receive healing wouldn’t that say to the at least that they had to do that (go somewhere “special”) to be healed? That’s my point about the difference between the theoretical and the practical. Theoretically that person should just be able to get that same healing at home or in their church but for some reason they weren’t and practically they had to go elsewhere to receive that healing.
I guess my point is that if I had some disease or sickness and I was not being healed at home or in church no matter what I did or who prayed, etc then I would take a shot at going to one of these meetings to see if I could get healing and I don’t think there would be anything umbilical or wrong about me doing so. I can see why many people do it.
6.) I’m not big on the faith healing of the Hagin type (such as standing on the word believing you will be healed without intervention like you mentioned). Some later discussion on that might be interesting. : )
BTW what disease were you healed of?
Bryan
By: Bryan L on July 16, 2008
at 9:56 am
Bryan: (1) Sounds nice, and it might be possible that some believers were in the crowds seeking healing, but do you have any examples? It’s too convenient to simply say ‘everyone means everyone.’ (And certainly a Calvinist wouldn’t believe that!) ;)
(2) Like I said to Will (and I believe you acknowledged this in your first comment): “These works were signs to confirm the gospel, signs that led to people placing their faith in Christ and devoting their lives to him.”
(3) No, it doesn’t seem circular, because it isn’t. And I can’t possibly answer your question because there’s no data recorded for me to answer it.
(4) It would mean that they’d go home proclaiming the same Gospel they believed. They’d speak of Jesus as the awaited Messiah. Their devotion to him would be on equal footing with their devotion to God. And again, how do I answer your question when I have no examples to draw from? Do you want me to say that they wore name tags or something?
(5) No, it wouldn’t mean that they had to do it, it would just mean that they did it. And I don’t want to keep repeating this, but I’m not saying that believers shouldn’t go to these types of meetings. I know plenty of people who go to Benny Hinn crusades (although you’ll never catch me at one), but they don’t have to go there.
(6) I’d call it faith healing of the Jesus type (i.e., ‘your faith has made you whole’ [Mat. 9:22; Mk. 10:52]). ;)
I’ll tell you in an email.
By: Nick Norelli on July 16, 2008
at 12:06 pm
Well obviously you are wrong about every one of your points but I’ll leave it at that ; )
Bryan
By: Bryan L on July 16, 2008
at 9:36 pm
Bryan: In the words of Doug Chaplin: “‘obvious’, obviously means ‘tendentious.’” ;)
By: Nick Norelli on July 16, 2008
at 9:44 pm