Posted by: Nick Norelli | January 3, 2008

Want to Debate

Last night I received a debate invitation from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.  They approached me after reading my debate from nearly a year and a half ago with an Australian Christadelphian on the doctrine of the Trinity.  I declined the offer but to them that I’d gladly answer any questions that they had in an email.  I wish to produce the two exchanges here.

Daley wrote: 

I have followed your debate with Searchingone1033, and I think he did a poor job. I am a Jehovah’s Witness, and I would like to have a debate with you if possible on the trinity with a single round rule: you must answer all my questions and respond to all passages I cite, and I must do the same for you. Interested? I’m sure it would be a very informative exercise. After reading your entire post, I really don’t see why Searchingone was unable to reply to most of your arguments.

I responded: 

Sorry, I didn’t catch your name, 

Thanks for the invitation, but I’m extremely busy at present.  I couldn’t commit to anything formal.  If you’d like to send me a list of questions/objections, I’d be happy to try to address them as time allows.  

Be well, 

Nick Norelli
http://rdtwot.wordpress.com 

Daley wrote back and said:  

I’m Daley. 

? for u:  When the Bible uses the word “God,” does it mean “nature,” “person,” “being,” or something else? Define it, so that we don’t get off on the wrong foot about definitions, please. For instance, does “God the Father” mean “nature [of] the Father,” or “person [of] the Father”? What does “God” mean in this phrase? 

When you call someone “my God,” are you saying 1) you created me, 2) you are greater than I am, 3) I worship you as an inferior, 4) all of the above, 5) none of the above, if so, what relationship does “my God” imply between two people when one who uses this expression of the other? 

If all other gods besides the True God are false, then what kind of elohim was Moses? Ex 7:1. Was he a false god or a true god or something else? What kind of relationship does elohim/theos imply between him and Pharoah?

I responded: 

Hi Daley, 

Thanks for your questions.  OK, here goes. 

The Bible uses the word ‘God’ (in English translations) in various contexts.  There is no one meaning.  I would say that ancient Hebrews didn’t think in Greek metaphysical categories so “being/substance” (Gk. ousia, Lat. substantia), and “person” (Gk. hypostasis, Lat. persona).  Richard Bauckham argues for a category of “divine identity” — which would apply to Yahweh.  So when we read in the OT of God (i.e., the true God) we are reading about Yahweh.  When we read of God in the NT it is generally in reference to the Father, although there are a handful of verses where Jesus is called God.  It is actually the way that the title “Lord” is taken up and applied to Jesus in the NT (along with the devotion to him) that really makes the case for his being included in the “divine identity.”  

When I say “my God” I am speaking to God, so it means exactly that.  I wouldn’t read more into it than that (I imagine you have John 20:28 in mind and Thomas’ calling Jesus “my Lord and my God”). 

Moses was a man not a “kind of god” — Exodus 7:1 shows us Moses standing in God’s place before Pharaoh.  But again, the various words translated as God have different meanings in different contexts.  One of the downfalls of language is that it is equivocal.  That makes us have to work harder in determining the meaning from the context. 

Thanks again for the questions.  If you have more try to get them all into one email.  I really don’t have the time to carry on an extended dialogue (sorry).  I’d also point out that if you see some difference between my answers to you and those given in my debate with Searchingone1033 it will be because I have grown in my understanding of the Bible, Theology, History, relevant current scholarly arguments, etc.  But I am still unabashedly Trinitarian. 

Be well, 

Nick Norelli
http://rdtwot.wordpress.com 

So there you have it.  If I wasn’t so tired at the time of receiving the email I would have said a bit more and probably would have been a little more aggressive with my responses, but I’m satisfied with the answers I gave.  I didn’t find the questions especially difficult for the Trinitarian position, in fact I barely found them relevant, but one thing we can agree on is Daley’s sentiment that Searchingone1033 did a poor job in our debate. ;)

B”H

Posted in Cults, Trinity

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Responses

Nick,

I have a feeling that your Arian…er, JW friend was not referring to Thomas’ confession with his questions regarding what it means to call someone “my God”. I think he was trying to set you up by getting you to admit that saying such would be affirming that your God created you, was greater than you, etc. so that he could then hit you with Jesus saying to Mary after the resurrection, “..your God and My God”, etc. Or he might hit you with Paul’s common reference to the Father being the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ” in his salutations.

Can’t be sure, but I think that is where he was trying to take you with those questions.

By: kangaroodort on January 3, 2008
at 12:18 pm

KangAroodort,

Ahh… that makes sense. I thought that they were going to try and act as if Thomas used it in some sort of a common way, like when we say, “oh my God.” Good call.

By: Nick Norelli on January 3, 2008
at 12:57 pm

Hey Nick,

I noticed you are reading Fee’s book on Pauline Christology. I ordered it last week and expect it to come in the mail today. What do you think of it so far?

By: kangaroodort on January 3, 2008
at 1:53 pm

Good stuff. I reckon my own research will be of interest to you, Nick. I am supoorting in, I think, a rathr convincing way, a Pauline divine Christology (’divine’ as Bauckham would define it).

By: Chris Tilling on January 3, 2008
at 1:54 pm

Ben,

I love it. I haven’t read through the whole thing yet but what I have read has both reassured my belief in a divine Christology and eternal preexistence, while making me seriously reconsider my former affinity for Wisdom Christology. I think that you will enjoy it very much… And it doesn’t hurt that Fee is basically Arminian ;) I’d recommend checking out Christ Tilling’s multi-part review of Pauline Christology.

Chris,

I know that it will! If you ever want to pass along some notes or a paper you’re working on I’d be more than happy to read it. I wish you’d blog a bit more about your research. :(

By: Nick Norelli on January 3, 2008
at 2:01 pm

The scriptures point out that God chose the simple ones from the world. The scriptures also recommend that we “reason ” from the scriptures…and so keeping things simple, the night before his death Jesus prayed very fervently to his father…using simple reasoning, does it make sense that God would need to pray to himself in order to ask himself to strengthen himself for his oncoming ordeal? One does not need a university education or a degree to understand the reasonableness of this scripture, but one certainly does need a strong university degree to twist and missinform the meaning of it in order to mislead the simple, doesn’t it? After all…B.S. baffles brains and if you use enough of it, then the simple cannot understand and can be easily mislead, but perhaps not someone who has a similar education level as your own, because they can see through the deception of large and smooth words. Also the bible states that jesus would subject everything to himself, and once everything was subjected to him, he would then hand the kingdom over to his father and subject himself to his father…does not simple reasoning suggest that according to this scripture, Jesus was in subjection to someone else who had greater authority than he which is backed up by the scripture in which Jesus was quoted as saying “The father is greater than I am.” I doubt that you will allow this blog on your site as it would probably expose a great deal of smooth deception . I am formerly a J.W. and now disfellowshipped, however, I cannot deny factual truths, and I blame myself for my current spiritual situation…not Jehovah nor his organization…myself only. I knew the rules and I and I alone chose to break them. So no body controls me as I can return to Jehovah who forgives in a large way at anytime of my own choosing.

By: Donald Vien on January 15, 2008
at 4:00 pm

Donald,

Let’s first of all point out your caricature of Trinitarian belief. We do not believe that Jesus (the 2nd person) prayed to himself. We do believe that Jesus (the 2nd person) prayed to his Father (the 1st person). There’s nothing difficult to understand about this and it certainly doesn’t call a Trinitarian understanding of God into question.

Secondly, I don’t have any university degrees. I have a G.E.D. from the Hailton Township Board of Education, yet I don’t have any problem understanding Trinitarian theology as it explains what Scripture says.

Thirdly, I have to ask, would your position be that God must be easily understood? If so, then what kind of God is it that you serve? My God is infinitely greater than anything I can fathom, and what I do know of him I know because he has revealed it in Scripture.

Fourthly, I addressed the functional subordination within the Trinity in the second part of this dialogue. You’d do well to read that part. Also, why do you take Jesus’ statement that the Father is greater than he (1) out of context, and (2) as some sort of statement of ontological inferiority?

Fifthly, you posted a comment on my blog — not a blog on my site — let’s get our terminology straight, mmm’k. ;) But your doubts were unfounded. To be honest, I haven’t found anything you said all that likely to expose anything, let alone persuade anyone that you are correct.

Sixthly, Your opposition to orthodox Trinitarianism is denying truth, so although I’m sure you believe your above statement to be correct, it isn’t. Your apostasy from the JWs is another issue for another time.

All the best. :)

By: Nick Norelli on January 15, 2008
at 4:32 pm

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