Posted by: Nick Norelli | June 11, 2007

A Dubious Use of Sources

I just watched a video on Philippians 2:5-11 made by unitarians J.J. Fletcher and Dustin Smith [I had originally said Justin, my apologies] available here and I noted many errors–too many to address in one blog post.  But one thing I did want to comment on was a misuse (if we can even call this a use at all) of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.   Dustin Smith said: 

Our top dictionaries, the, um, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament or the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology will tell us that morphe is the image or the expression or the role or the status.  So we’re going to see in here it has nothing to do with being in very nature God, none of these dictionaries say nature, these are the top uh scholarly works that we have this is the best that the people can do and it’s very rare in the New Testament do its not the easiest thing to understand that’s why we have to go with the best we have to offer.

Now in making this statement he picks up the TDNT and looks at it, but he doesn’t actually read from it.  But let’s test his claim by quoting from a portion of the section called The μορφη of Christ in the New Testament.
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The lofty terminology of the hymn can venture to speak of the form or visible appearance of God in this antithesis on the theological basis of the δοξα concept of the Greek Bible, which is also that of Paul, and according to which the majesty of God is visibly expressed in radiant light (→ II, 237ff.). The μορφη θεου in which the pre-existent Christ was is simply the divine doxa; Paul’s εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων corresponds exactly to Jn. 17:5: τη δοξη η ειχον προ του τον κοσμον ειναι παρα σοι. The wealth of the Christological content of Phil. 2:5 f. rests on the fact that Paul does not deny the incomparable measure of the self-denial displayed by the pre-existent Christ in His incarnation merely as the opposite of the egotistic exploitation of what he possessed (→ I, 474) or as the surrender of His own will, nor is he concerned merely to emphasize the contrast between his eternal and temporal existence, His deity and humanity, but he brings out in clear-cut contrast the absolute distinction between the modes of being. Christ came down from the height of power and splendor to the abyss of weakness and lowliness proper to a slave, and herein is revealed for the apostle, the inner nature of the Redeemer who is both above history and yet also in history.  He did not consider Himself; He set before the eyes of those who believe in Him the example of forgetfulness of his own ego.[1]

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And one more small point that I wanted to raise in this post—the gentlemen in the video claimed that Philippians 2 was not teaching pre-existence (they makes reference to Martin Luther and James D.G. Dunn as some who agree with the position), but the article in the TDNT says otherwise.  We saw this in the quote above and we will see it further in the footnote below.
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That the pre-existent Christ is meant may be seen from the structure of the hymn, which traces the whole path of the Redeemer from its beginning in heaven by way of the status exinanitionis to the goal of exaltation and glorification. The ref. to the historical Jesus (Eus. Hist. Eccl., V, 2, 2ff., Letter of the Churches of Vienne and Lyons; v. Loofs, 67 ff.; also Loofs, 92 ff.; Kattenbusch, 404 f.; Bornhäuser, 461) is unable to explain the εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων satisfactorily.  Because of the pre-existent Christology there is no cause to reject Pauline authorship of Phil. 2:6 f…[2]

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Remember, according to Mr. Smith “these are the top uh scholarly works that we have this is the best that the people can do”

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Notes 

[1] Behm, J. “μορφη” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. IV: Λ – Ν. Ed. Gerhard Kittel, Trans.  Geoffrey W. Bromiley, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1967, rpt. 2006), 751-52. [Bold mine]

[2] Ibid., Footnote 48, 751. [Bold mine] 

Responses

Hello, My name is actually Dustin, not Justin.

I’d be interested to hear the errors that I spoke of. Also curious as to if you have even read Dunn’s book on Christology.

Dustin

I apologize for the name mix up–I’ll make the necessary change.

Give me a day or two and I’ll document the errors.

Which book in particular? I have not read Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry Into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation (too much $$$ — I’ll wait for the price to drop at Amazon ;) ) if that’s the one you have in mind. However, his position as to pre-existence is stated in The Theology of the Paul the Apostle (Eerdmans, 1998) so I am familiar with it.

You will however notice that this post was in reference to your use of the TDNT, not Luther or Dunn. I only mentioned them in passing as people that you referenced who agree with your position.

Here’s some of those errors I was talking about:

This is referring to the human historical Jesus and not something in pre-history which is very strange to understand, how you can be pre-human. That’s not something the Bible really talks about.

Here you’ve thrown out a term without defining it. What exactly do you mean by pre-human? One could gather that you’re arguing that Trinitarians believe that the Son was somehow human before the incarnation–if this is your position then you’d be creating a straw man since we don’t believe that.

I could also assume that you mean existence prior to incarnation. If this is your intention then it is an easy question to answer. The Son existed as God before he added the nature of humanity to himself in the incarnation. The Bible does talk about this in the very passage you are discussing as well as in John’s prologue (1:1-18).

It would be strange if Paul’s telling us to have the attitude of… one day God became a man. Can you relate to that very much? Not really… I can’t relate.

Incarnation is not an attitude. Humiliation is. Humiliation was accomplished by Incarnation. You have created a straw man in representing Trinitarianism as teaching that Philippians 2 is saying that we should all somehow become incarnate.

The Trinitarian position is that God the Son became Man by taking upon himself the form of a servant and in doing so he showed us the ultimate humility. We are to have this same mind of humility that Christ had and there is no greater example than his Incarnation.

Jesus was in morphē theou and later he was in morphē doulos, form of a servant, form of a slave.

I don’t want to nitpick but it’s morphēn (accusative case) doulou (genitive case) not morphē (nominative case) doulos (nominative case)–you did ask for documentation of error though. ;)

So Jesus is being the agent of the Father he is the ambassador of the Father, ya know, the Father sent him on a mission, he basically is the Father

No, Jesus is not basically the Father. Jesus is the Son, always has been, always will be. Does he represent the Father? Yes, of course. But you have to be very careful with your wording.

But doesn’t that contradict what the creeds say where they say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are all equal–that’s interesting, that’s a good point

Weren’t you just contending that the Son was equal to the Father via your president/vice president analogy? If so how does your analogy contradict what the creeds say? What exactly was the good point raised there?

I would point out however that where unitarians contend for a functional equality, Trinitarians do not. We admit an ontological equality and a functional subordination. The Father sent the Son, the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit. Within the economy of the Trinity they each have specific functions.

Now notice that God the Son is nowhere found in Scripture. It’s nowhere found in any of the extra-biblical languages, extra-biblical sources. First of all I wonder where it is they get that stuff.

I’m always amazed at this particular argument–I believe you presented it at Higher Ground in the comments to the post on Worship. I’ll re-state what I said there:

There are many words and phrases that the Bible never says which describe things we believe. The Bible never uses the term unitarianism or makes the statement that God is one person yet that accurately describes the beliefs of JohnO, John Paul, Sean, and presumably you. So while the Bible doesn’t use the phrase Jesus is God, second person of the Trinity it certainly supplies us with all the data necessary to make that statement.

I will however note the obvious and that is Hebrews 1:8 which does supply us with the Son being called God explicitly.

And to the Son (προς δε τον υίον)
your throne God (Ο θρονος ό θεος)

And isn’t your point that the phrase God the Son is only found in extra-biblical material? I’ll chalk that up to a simple slip of the tongue.

This is good for now. Over the next day or two I’ll get to the other 10-11 minutes of the video.

Nick, I think you may have been confused as to a few of my points that I made here. If you are interested in fixing them up, I would be glad to contact you by phone or instant messenger to officially declare my thoughts/position.

I cant type out my explaination of the prologue of John (the most studied passage in the NT, not something we can iron out on here). Heb 1:8 can be translated in the vocative or the nom (check the RSV or NEB footnote). A few other facts are an issue of the Greek language. When I speak, I use a modern pronunciation. I think you take many things that I said out of context from Phil 2 and make me say something that I didnt mean to.

I have read both of the books you are referring to, Dunn’s book on Paul and his book on Christology. I also have private emails from him where he declares his view on Christology. I have personal friends as Fuller seminary who have heard him say to their face his view on preexistance, but thats just one aspect of this discussion. I doubt you are swayed by Dunn as your official source of truth.

Anyways, if you want to just be a hot shot in the internet, go ahead and do your thing. If you really want to discuss these things, let me know.

Remember, Jesus said love your enemies, let’s keep that in mind =)

Dustin

Dustin,

I admit that it is always possible to misunderstand people, but I don’t believe that I have misunderstood you. Your position is that Philippians 2:5ff is not teaching the deity or preexistence of Christ, right? Obviously I disagree.

I’m not a phone person in general so I’m not interested in speaking that way but I’d welcome an email of any length for you to officially explain/declare your thoughts/position.

I understand concerning John 1:1-18 — it certainly is a weighty portion of Scripture that can’t really be given the attention it deserves in a comments section of a blog. As far as Hebrews 1:8 is concerned, I’m aware of the grammatical issues but I don’t feel that a contextual reading of Psalm 45 from which the passage is quoted can yield the translations: your throne is God or your throne of God. I think its much easier to see that the Messiah is being addressed as God.

I didn’t really have any issues with your pronunciation (although it differs from mine) but I’d be interested to find out what you feel I have taken out of context. And I wonder if putting it into context is going to change my understanding of your position as rejecting the deity/preexistence of the Son.

Like I said, Christology in the Making is a little too rich for my blood right now but I am familiar with his views on the preexistence of divine Wisdom (which can still fit nicely into the Trinitarian paradigm) through his other writings — and you are correct in that I am not swayed by Dunn on this matter. I have however considered his opinion before disagreeing with it.

I have no desire to be a “hot shot” (I’m not really sure of all that is wrapped up in that term) but I have been exposed to your teachings by the folks over at Higher Ground and I have seen fit to comment on some of them. I’ve also commented on some of Sean Finnegan’s material. I welcome you to do the same to any of my material.

So as I said, I’d welcome an email of any length for your to explain your position and I’d be more than willing to respond in kind. I’m all for dialogue, but as far as the blog is concerned, I will continue to comment on whatever’s on my mind at the time — after all, that’s what blogs are for.

Nick

Nick, you seem to be willing to dialogue via emails, internet, and blogs. Just curious as to how you do “in realtime.” Would you like to discuss these issues over a call-in radio show that is recorded? Not quite looking for a debate (although I’m not against them) I would really like to talk things over in a recorded fashion so that others can hear both sides of the arguments and make an educated choice for themselves. I have your AIM name and I will try to get in contact with you that way.

My thoughts on Phil 2 is that it is refering to the human historical Jesus, not to any sort of preexistance. The point of quoting scholars (Luther, Dunn, Colin Brown) shows that I didnt just make this up. People who study the bible for a living actually think the same way. At least worth considering.

I would actually challenge you to have a thourough reading of Dunn’s Christology. I know you dont own it at this point, but its not over anyone’s head who is into theology. I read it when I was 19 and really got me thinking critically on these issues. I would also recommend Anthony Buzzard’s book on the Trinity (now in like 15+ languages, showing a mighty interest). Bart Ehrman’s book on the Orthodoz Corruption of Scripture was nice also.

Heb 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45, which the RSV translates “your divine throne.” The RSV is not a sissy translation and is regarded by many scholars as very accurate. Also check out what TDNT 3:96 says about “elohim” in Psalm 45:6.

If you want more things to read over/critique, check out http://www.restorationfellowship.org

Dustin

Dustin,

Yes, I am willing to dialogue via emails and blogs but as far as “real time” goes, I don’t feel it’s really all that conducive to the best that people (at least this person) have to offer. I’m the type of person who likes to think things over, consider them, examine various views, check references, etc., and then respond. I don’t see this is a possibility in a call in radio show format. So thank you for the offer, but no thank you.

In regard to your take on Phil. 2, I realize that you didn’t just make it up (there’s nothing new under the sun, Ecc. 1:9) but I still disagree. As I said, I’m familiar with Dunn’s views from his other works but my reluctance to pick up Christology in the Making is purely monetary at the moment. I can’t see myself paying over $40 for a paperback that’s less than 500 pages in length (perish the thought!). But as soon as the price drops to something reasonable I’ll make sure to pick it up.

As a subscriber to the Focus on the Kingdom newsletter and a frequenter of the Restoration Fellowship website, I’m very familiar with Buzzard’s work and he has yet to make an argument that I have found compelling. I’m also a fan of Ehrman in regard to text critical matters but I find many of the conclusions he draws from these matters to be non sequiturs.

In regard to Psalm 45:6 in the RSV, while I realize that grammatically it is possible to translate the verse that way, contextually I can’t see how anyone would. I don’t know what you mean by “sissy translation” exactly, but for as many scholars that support it you can find counterparts who criticize it. It is certainly in the minority on choosing this rendering—but notice that even the RSV translated Hebrews 1:8 saying, “But of the Son he says, Thy throne, O God…” taking it as a vocative.

And the TDNT seems to agree with my statement that:

I think its much easier to see that the Messiah is being addressed as God.

Their saying that the passage is referring to the king and not Yahweh is not problematic because in the original context of the passage this is certainly the case—this passage is applicable to any Davidic king—but the writer of the Hebrews understood this as a Messianic reference and applied it to the Son (see TDNT 3:105).

Thanks for your comments =)

Nick

Here’s an interesting question for you Nick, just to see where you stand.

Do you feel that all non-trinitarians will not have enterance into the kingdom?

Dustin

Do you feel that all non-trinitarians will not have enterance into the kingdom?

There’s a lot wrapped up in this question. I guess my answer would depend on what exactly you mean by kingdom. I’m a dispensationalist so kingdom upon first glance would suggest the millennial kingdom.

If this is what is meant then the short answer is yes, I believe that there will be non-Trinitarians in the millennial kingdom (because I believe that there will be unbelievers in the kingdom).

If by kingdom you mean heaven (which I doubt since I’m fairly certain that you don’t hold the view that believers go to heaven upon death) then I would say that I do feel that non-Trinitarians will not be allowed entrance into heaven (see the Athanasian Creed 1-2, 44), but I’d qualify the term non-Trinitarian as those who willfully deny Yahweh’s tri-unity.

For example, there was a time before the incarnation of the Son which is what solidifies the reality of Yahweh’s tri-unity. I can’t say that the OT saints were Trinitarians in the present sense of the term (although I do feel that they had all of the raw data to work with), but I do believe that they’re in heaven. I do not believe that those OT saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 would deny the Trinity if they had the information to work with that later Christians did.

I’d be interested in your take on Trinitarians entering the kingdom.

Well, it seems we have quite a few things we disagree on.

My personal feelings are that I should not judge (Matt. 7:1) in fear of condemnation. Although there is a rather scary warning in 1 John 4:2 and 2 John 7-9 about people who deny the human Jesus. Again, I try to not write off certain denominations or groups because I dont know their hearts.

BY kingdom I do mean what will be established when Jesus returns on this earth. People at that time will be resurrected. I dont think the Bible teaches that the dead are alive in heaven but rather in the grave awaiting resurrection. But this is a whole ‘nother topic in itself.

Would you say that someone who makes the confesion that “Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God” would be sufficiant for their belief in who Jesus is?

Dustin

Dustin,

Not really. I have heard many a Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Christadelphian, Unitarian, etc. make that very confession and I believe that they all believe in another Jesus. That confession is dependant on the Jesus of Scripture and a denial of Jesus’ deity is a denial of the Jesus of Scripture.

Nick

Nick,

Is that phrase that I quoted above a clear cut statement of Jesus’ deity in your opinion?

Dustin

Dustin,

In my opinion that is a clear cut statement of Jesus’ Messiah-ship(?) — you know what I mean =)

Nick

Wow… I just looked in a dictionary and that is a real word! Whooda Thunkit?

Nick,

My point is that when Peter confessed that to Jesus, Jesus seemed to accept that and prasie Peter for his confession. He didnt add anything to it or rebuke him for not being complete. Nothing in here about Jesus’ deity.

Just curious, although I prolly know what you will say, but do you think Jesus had a beginning?

Dustin

Dustin,

I don’t see how an affirmation of Jesus being the Messiah is a denial of his being deity. =/

Your question is a very good one and it is an area where I feel many Trinitarians actually falter. There was a time before the Son was incarnate (Jo. 1:1; 17:5). The Son at a point in time added the nature of humanity to the eternal nature of deity that he has always possessed (Jo. 1:14; Phil. 2:6-8; 1Tim. 3:16).

So while the Son is eternal, Jesus had a beginning–the Incarnation.

Nick

Nick, the Messiah is supposed to be the Son of God. Note there, Son of God…. God had a Son.

The Messiah is supposed to be not God, but God’s son, cf Psalm 2:7 and 2 Sam 7:12-14.

So many things I want to address, but I will take what you said here:
“The Son at a point in time added the nature of humanity to the eternal nature of deity”

Can you further define this? Was Jesus an actual human being, with a human mind and ego? Was he an actual member of the human race as you and I are?

Another question, did Jesus completely die on the cross?

Dustin

Nick, the Messiah is supposed to be the Son of God. Note there, Son of God…. God had a Son.

As a Trinitarian I have no problem agreeing with this statement. Of course I disagree with the one that followed because I don’t presuppose unitarianism.

Was Jesus an actual human being, with a human mind and ego? Was he an actual member of the human race as you and I are?

Yes, Jesus was an actual human being and an actual member of the human race—although I would note some significant differences between Jesus and us. Our births weren’t supernatural/miraculous events for starters. Concerning a human mind I stand in agreement with the Symbol of Chalcedon when it states:

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood (και τέλειον τον αυτον εν ανθρωπότητι); truly God and truly man (ανθρωπον αληθως), of a reasonable [rational] soul (ψυχης λογικης)

It is important to note however that the person of the Son did not change in the incarnation (neither did his deity).

Another question, did Jesus completely die on the cross?

We have different beliefs concerning death. I have no problem saying that Jesus completely died on the cross because I view death as something physical. Of course there are different senses of death in Scripture which is apparent from passage such as Ephesians 2:1 which tells us that we were dead in tresspasses and sin (obviously not meant to be taken in a physical sense but rather in the sense of being separated from God). Clearly I don’t believe that Jesus died in this sense being that he never sinned and there was never a time when he was separated from the Father.

Nick, If you state that Jesus was an actual member of the human race (like us except the virginal begetting) and you also state that He is deity (meaning God), how many persons is Jesus? Does he have 2 egos?

Can you also define what you mean by birth (in reference to Jesus)? Are you confertable with the specific Greek used in Matt. 1:18, 20 and Luke 1:35?

And quit quoting the councils to me. They are not inspired in the canon of Scripture. Quote the bible to me, not something that was written in the 5th century.

On the death issue, I would ask 2 things (agreeing that we differ on death, but these we can pull straight from Scripture):

How many soul’s does Yahweh have?

And did Jesus’ soul die?

Dustin

Dustin

Jesus is one person with two natures (Phil. 2:6-7). The eternal Son became Incarnate (Jo. 1:1, 14).

Deity = Nature
Humanity = Nature
Son = Person

By birth I mean birth (i.e. coming out of the womb)–but I guess it would be more accurate to say that the conception was miraculous and not really the birth since I’m fairly certain we all came out the same way.

And yes, I’m very comfortable with the terms γένεσις (or γέννησις if you prefer the TR or MT), γεννηθέν, and γεννωμενον. They fit perfectly with the doctrine of the Incarnation and agree with my second to last response.

I will quote creeds where they are relevant and here the statements from the Symbol of Chalcedon were relevant. You asked my position in regard to Jesus’ having a human mind and my response was one of agreement with Chalcedon. Jesus has a ψυχης λογικης.

But you are acting as if I have made a habit of “quoting the councils to [you]” — Clearly I have not. I made one reference (not a quote) to the Athanasian Creed — a creed whose authorship and origin are unknown, but it most likely was not the product of a Church council. And I quoted a relevant section from Chalcedon.

Soul is used various ways in Scripture. You’d have to define what you mean by asking how many souls Yahweh has. As far as I know the term soul is only used in reference to Yahweh a few times in the Hebrew Scriptures and I would take the use as anthropomorphism. I don’t believe that God (i.e. the entire Trinity) has an actual soul like you or I. Now once the God the Son (i.e. the 2nd person of the Trinity) was incarnated he possessed a soul, but that would only be due to the addition of humanity. That is as unique to the Son as is his physical body.

With respect to your question about Jesus in what way are you using the word soul? We already know that we don’t view death in the same way, so I don’t really know what kind of answer you expect.

I suspect you have ότι ούκ έγκαταλείψεις τήν ψυχήν μου εις άδην….ότι ούτε έγκατελείφθη εις άδην… (Acts 2:27, 31 cf. Ps. 16:10) in mind but I can’t be sure. If this is the case then we’d certainly differ on the meaning of άδην (assuming that you view it as mankind’s common grave). But this is all speculation at this point–I don’t know what you think yet.

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